The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email To The Editor
(Page 70)

(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)


 In a past document I submitted to the Painful Truth, I predicted that when all those poor WCG kids grew up and realized how they were scammed and crammed into a convoluted, crazy religious cult that practiced a Jim Jones type of religion (come die with me), they would become extremely bitter and flee like fleas off a treated dog.

 In recent visits to the PT web site, I have read some of the letters of their bitterness and their painful experiences, which actually brought tears to my eyes. Thankfully, during my 28 year WCG internment, only me, my wife and daughter were infected. My son would have none of it. We went with UCG when WCG went Universally Christian. Then, like Rip Van Winkle, the slow awakening began. So with WCG imploding and the UCG upper echelon playing musical chairs as to who was to lead the fledgling cult, we three made our exit. Oh, how goddam glad we did!!! Our lives have changed dramatically for the good. No more tithing, no more writhing, no more debts, prospering on investments and retirement pay and enoying life to the fullest. I now drive a 2000 Buick Century, where in the past we drove to feast sites in a rattletrap Chevy Malibu. Most importantly, I can now watch the OSU Buckeyes on Saturdays. Especially this year, when they are 11-0. You can bet your ass a lot of the cult die-hards are watching too. Anyhow, what prompted these quotes is first one regarding young people:

Our young people are diseased with the theological problems of original sin, origin of evil, predestination and the like...These are the soul's mumps and measles and whooping coughs, and those who have not caught them, cannot describe their health or prescribe the cure. ------Ralph Waldo Emerson

The test of a religion or philosophy is the number of things it can explain: so true it is. But the religion of our churches explains neither art nor society nor history, but itself needs explanation.------Ralph Waldo Emerson

The most detestable wickedness, the most horrible cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most dishonorable belief against the character of the Divinity, the most destructive to morality and peace and happiness of mankind, that ever was propagated since man began--Ibid

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coersion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. ---Jefferson

 If it was at all possible, this last quote should be e mailed to all the die-hards, devout Christians, and all devoted bible believers:

The God that holds you over the pit of Hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours ----Ibid

 So to open minded parents I offer this suggestion: As difficult as it may be, encourage your kids to read the works of the masters instead of wasting their time on Harry Potter books. As in all good meals, dessert comes last. (Especially in food for developing mind).



 Hello, I am a third generation Worldwide Church of God victim. I came across this site last year. I wrote a couple of times trying to find closure about my past.

But a whole year later, I'm doing much better but still have to return to this site from time to time to forgive myself for my issues.

It's going to take a life-long process considering that my parents are so brainwashed that they have literally turned their backs on me because they cant cope and understand my struggle or desire to function in the real world.

My parents were as strict as they come. My mother went to AC --her glory and my father who entered in his twenties fell in love a married her put her on a pedestal because of this.

My whole childhood revolved around the church. Interest in grades was minimal. My mother thought it was her duty to have us set apart by forcing us to dress decades behind the latest fashions. My sister and I were both persecuted at school all of our lives.

The thing is, I think my parents did nothing about the abuse and seemed glad we were suffering on the outside. But low and behold on every Saturday, she would lay out my dress and ugly dress she would buy for my while I was at school and force me to like and wear it. Up until the age 16. Most of the dresses were for too young for a teenager to wear. This set me apart from even the youths in the church--so I became an outsider on the inside and the outside.

I could never talk back or not do it or my parents would berate me with insults. I was completely isolated from my extended family and outside friends so I had nowhere to turn. So I developed an eating disorder and packed pounds on my beautiful figure much to my mother's satisfaction. Looking back, I now remember her cooking huge "Sabbath dinners" encouraging me to go back for seconds, even thirds. I became an over eater. Along with that and being forced to dress and repress my natural "GOD perfectly and beautifully designed sexuality at a youth, my menstrual cycle became erratic. I was taught that it was nothing but shame when dealing with the opposite sex and my parents manipulated my life so that I would be in a situation where I could never meet anyone.-This goes against God's wonderful plan of procreation and love and marriage.

Therefore, I spent my beautiful (my mother was very jealous of me) teen years a prisoner to the church. And would spend the remainder of the Sabbath fantasizing (bisexual and heterosexual fantasies) and masturbating repeatedly after two helpings of Saturday's dinner-our family slept the Sabbath away.

I was taught that men were bad and that sex and growing up was evil. So when I basically quit the church at college and tried to attempt a normal life, I was laden with guilt and not only shunned relationships but for my late teens a early twenties, I physically and completely gradually let myself go until I reached 200 pounds. My mother's jealous manipulations and shame paradigm (which I attribute to my grandmothers values placed upon her from the church)

Kept me from ever having a relationship, then she blamed me for being unattractive and repulse to men, much to her delight. Then she turns around burns with jealousy whenever one of my peers from the church gets married who parents didn't make them dress like little girls at age 16. Or open their mail.

She actually wore one of my (church prom) dresses to a church dance the following year.

Because we were so isolated from the world, college has been the only escape for me. I slaved through undergrad. Worked for a year moved back home. I had an apartment which always stayed filthy because of the depression I experienced. I just didn't have the will to clean up. Life had no purpose.

I lost my virginity in a one night stand-he just never called back. And to cope I had a series of one night stands until I became desensitized. I had to find a way to move on so I went to grad school. that was the best thing to ever happen to me. For the first time I was free. The world was full of possibilities owning my own business, economic growth and opportunity It was hard. Once again, I was an outsider, people didn't understand why I never has any support from home and just assumed I was trash and treated me that way.

It was painful. I naively went to my parents for help and they did what ever they could to make it worse. I was evicted twice and once when my check was stolen. I had no food until my job cut me another check which was four days and my parents sent me nothing. I had to break down and explain to someone who was almost a stranger to give me food.

After the ordeal was over, my mother called me and asked me how I made out over the past four days.

I told her Just great and wonderfully blessed.

Thanks to this website, I was finally able to separate God from Armstrong. Coming upon this site was one of the most liberating days of my life. It has been hard. I was liberated because I now know that not everything is my fault-like the fact that I'm trying to go to school a make a living for myself outside of my parents chokehold and that I have has trouble coping.

How have I coped with all of this? Through the strength of the GOD and Jesus Christ and the freedom of salvation of repentance and love. Despite all of it GOD is still good.

 I know that politics may not let you print the rest of this letter, but I can only testify what works for me.

In graduate school, I discovered one of the worlds best kept secrets. God's perfect creation of the marijuana plant.

This only personal testimony. I could not cope for a while after finding this site. I had flashbacks, I walked out of a job and felt as if I was going insane.

If it were not for regular use of marijuana, I would have had a complete nervous breakdown.

Marijuana, has been a natural anti-depressant with out the side effects and addictive possibilities of Prozac or paxil.

It helps me to process my thoughts more healthily. It eliminates the constant state of shame that I have lived with all my life. My thinking patterns are more positive.

Once I stared cannabis therapy, I no longer allow my room to stay filthy in depression. I no longer masturbate excessively-despite the fact that cannabis naturally stimulates libido.

finally, it has helped me to be uninhibited enough to function is social situations normally without ever going over the top. And has been a spiritual enlightenment.

For example,(just a generic illustration) I haven't been clothes shopping since 1997 (cult mentality stuff) and GOD has blessed me with money for clothes.

A shopping spree before cannabis therapy would have included, flash backs and bitterness to the clothes I was forced to wear as a child. Insecurity because of my weight. Feelings of low worth reflected on how I was rejected by my peers and opposite sex-thus resulting in soothing my anxiety with large fattening meals at the food court followed by at least two gourmet cookies. Sometime four. I would come home and through the bags into my nest of filth and they would stay there for days.

Now when I go to the mall, if I smoke beforehand, I put things into perspective. I remind myself that anything that is not growing and changing for the better is dying. I can put the past in it's place and get excited about the opportunity to have a new look. I look to the future, not the past. I'm spiritually at peace. I have the stamina to hunt until I find the best bargains and get the most for my money and I always walk out with a deal. And go home to a clean peaceful dwelling.

the only reason why I'm writing this is to share that it has worked for me.

I know it against the law of the land. But ever since Worldwide Church of God, I separate GOD from every man made law. Cannabis that grows from the earth is something He created and it is good.

Worldwide Church of God victims of all ages could possibly benefit greatly from cannabis therapy. I will probably never fully recover, but cannabis has helped my mind frame and I feel further and further removed from Worldwide Church of God every day

Much love, Denise

Hi Editor:

According to Ducky's Pub - a site dedicated to die-hards of WCG.  there are a few things that might be of interest.  Dean Blackwell's health is in rocky condition, as his wife is dying of ovarian cancer.  But the thing that really ticks me off is the "retirement" schedule of these leeches.  It's worthy of note that I saw these notices BEFORE they removed them from the "Ducky" site.  It appears that the parties in question don't want anyone to know what they're doing with our money.

While these cultmasters are now retiring comfortably, there are thousands upon thousands of decent folks that are struggling with what they now have as a fixed income - that's probably the SS income.  If they'd given what they'd wasted to the Worldwide Cult and given it to Blue Chip Stock investments then it could have made these people much more comfy in their older years.  The action of these cultmaster criminals (and PROVE me wrong) besides being illegal, immoral, and ruthless, is also sickenly cruel to older folks.  There can be NO possibility of ignorance here on the part of these crooks.  They KNEW what was happening.  They had to. Their only contribution to this Earth's evolution is the destruction of human lives.  Again - PROVE me wrong.

For some years, it appears, that these cultic whores have been investing, stashing away, and piling up their money.  And PUUUUULLLLLEEEEEAAAAASSSEEE (to any doubting "Thomases"), spare me the age old line about having "their own private income."  If this were the case, then why didn't they give it ALL to "God's Work?"  They came into Ambassador as poor (and in many cased that I know) "no-brainer" kids, but they left with megabucks.

Les McCullough from the United Cult is moving to acreage (please note: ACREAGE - that's plural)  to the east of the Big Sandy campus.  That would probably be somewhere near Longview.  LeeeeeeeeeRoy Neff, Burk McNair, Frank McCrady and others are also retiring in comfort.  How nice it is to retire in comfort on other peoples' money!

If anyone has specific addresses on these folks, it would really be nice to know, as we could all drop them a Xmas card sometimes. 

Best.  JohnO.

Dear Editor

Sorry to be late responding to your response to my Evolution link. If you say that many evolutionists are elitist snobs, I'll shake your hand. If you say that they are a pain in the ass, I'll buy you a beer.

But evolution is pretty well demonstrated. It is used by many, many branches of science, including petroleum exploration. If some other theory worked better, Shell and Exxon would use it. Evolution is a theory--so are the theories of Light and Gravitation. We don't fully understand the mechanisms. But we're not going to walk off of cliffs and stumble around in the dark until we do. Newton had a helluva theory, until Einstein improved on it.

The reason that evolutionists are so 'evangelical' is partly because of the goddam Creationists, trying to peddle their swill in public schools under the guise of Science. See the link below for the Creationist Creed. We must keep this crap-ola out of science education. 

 I was late responding because of a sick wife (now OK and back to work) and babysitting my 16 month old grandson while Mom attended a seminar in Boston. I know you're busy, but I enjoy hearing from you.




I understand the attractiveness of the Evolutionary theory.

Possibly this may be the simplest definition of evolution?: 

"..... offspring inherit the characteristics of their parents, via an inherence unit call genes.  Sometimes there is an error in replicating the gene from parent to offspring and a change is inherited.   If that change is either not too harmful or carries an advantage such that the child has offspring, that change will be passed on.  Sometimes the change has a competitive advantage and those with those advantages will increase faster than those without."

This theory allows for slight changes, little by little, over millions of years. I can accept that.

Now, explain to me how the first bird was able to fly.

Many physical things were necessary for this to even be possible.  Wings for one thing. A porous bone structure, for another, so that the bird was light enough to be able to fly. It is just too incredible for me to be able to think that birds had to evolve all the necessary tools to be able to fly, over possibly millions of years in order to reach the point where these birds finally got the guts to jump off a cliff and see what happens. And, why would a bird keep "evolving" all these necessary characteristics, to be able to fly, over millions of years, when, up until it was able to fly, the characteristics may actually have been a detriment to survival?

How many pre-whales died when they supposedly returned to the sea, before they evolved a blowhole instead of breathing through their mouths? How does a blowhole evolve? Is evolution that ingenious? Just one day a mutation is born with a blowhole? Why? Wouldn't millions even billions have to be born with variations of, but unworkable, blowholes before you would get one that actually was connected correctly and worked?

This would be just a couple of  bones that I would have to pick with evolutionists. I don't see any evolution happening today, other than adaptation. Yes, there may be some parts of this theory that may allow for scientists to make scientific conclusions but that does not explain or certify the whole theory.

I agree: Keep the creationists out of school. They are not just creationists, they are religionists and they are dangerous because they are religionists. I don't put myself in the same category as "creationists" although I do deduce that there had to be some kind of Creator/Designer. I lean to the Deist point of view, as you know.  My opinion is that religionists have much less credibility than evolutionists. Evolutionists are closer to the truth because they use science but they go too far and accept their theory as fact when there are many unanswered questions.

I'm not a scientist. I'm not very smart or educated. I understand the theory. I just can't get my brain to accept it. It requires too much faith.





Boy i was just at your site and guess what I was doing? I was laughing! lol lol lol

Man are you some kind of child? Holding a grude for how long? What a loser. You are more of loser since you dibeleive Mr. Armstrong. Oh well. Just thought i would write and laugh at you. Because you are funny in your stupidity. here goes hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahhahahah

ok, wel your not worth much of my time, but i got bored and thought i would have some fun with the retarded that live among us the world, kinda like you! lol lol

Oh yeah, fun stuff. Stupid crazy child have fun with your games!

(oh, and this is not my real name so i dont mind my name being post on your hate mail sheet. Go ahead and be stupid and put it up there so i can have a few more laughs if you will. Thanks dummie hahahah)


 Hi, slapdick!

You're really cute, aren't you? You're also very funny. You've even got me laughing.

Hohohohohohohoho Hahahahahahahaha Heeheeheeheehee snort! Chuckle!

You know why you're so funny? Because you're an idiot!


You can't spell.




You have the IQ of a ringworm!!!


You're a fucking MORON!


You have a TINY PEE-PEE !!!!!




You're also a coward! Because you're AFRAID to sign your real name. But I'm not! My name is JOHN BOWERS!

And the laugh is on YOU, shitbreath!

Now go back and finish eating your own boogers!

John B


Hahahaha! I made you mad! LOL! Boy what a little child. Oh well, no use trying to deal with a child, they don't know what they are talking about. Hey, you know what would make your life better? Stop being a stupid little kid! You are wasting your life by bashing Mr. Armstrong and what he beleived in. You are bitter. Stop wastin your time on the stupid web site, go out get a job, and try to make at least a little something out of your life, k? Thats a good boy.

Glen J.


 Dear Glen,

Well, that was fun, wasn't it? We both got a good laugh. But all kidding aside.

You said I was bitter. And you're right, I don't deny it. I had 40 years stolen from me, and though I don't sit around crying over it every day, I also am not happy that I was such a fool to let that happen.

You didn't make me mad. You made me sad. I was once just like you, living in a cage of false religion. I lived in fear all the time -fear of the tribulation, fear of not making it into the kingdom, fear of the ministers, fear fear fear, all the time fear. I hope you aren't going through that, but I suspect you are afraid of a lot of things.

Get a job, you said? Glen, I'm 54 years old. I've been working since I was 16. I now have three kids in college. And you know what? I can't pay their tuition. They all had to take out student loans, which they will have to pay back, in order to get their education. That's because I gave all my extra money to Herbert Armstrong. I've calculated I probably gave him in excess of $40,000 in tithes alone, never mind the offerings and other gifts I turned in. I hope you'll think about that, Glen, because when you finish high school and get ready for college, your mom and dad may not have the money, either. Chances are you'll have to take out a student loan just like my kids did. You can do that, and get a really good education, but as soon as you graduate you will already be in debt. You'll spend the first ten years after college paying back your loan.

If you think Armstrong was a great man, that's fine. Think whatever you want. But go to the Painful Truth website and read my article called The Middle of the Movie. It was written for people just like you. The "plain truth" is: You don't know anything at all about Herbert Armstrong. And until you do, you should not blindly follow him.

But that's your business. I ruined my life following him -I just hope you're smarter than I was.

John B


 You know what? I have been through college and you know what? God has blessed me with NO debts whatsover. I did not have to take out a loan and yes, I still do pay tithes. I feel sorry for you, the way that you feel about things. I read up on you. You had a rough time of it, and I agree that the Wordwide organization had a bunch of idiots as members and leaders. But why put your belief in one organization to the point where you are ignoring the Bible and simply relying on the organization and its leaders for the basis of your spiritual life. Things change and one cannot base religious beliefs in an organization.

As a human government, Worldwide was bound to fall by the wayside. This fact does not mean that you just stop beleiving in everything, but continue on through the trials. You had everything going for you. You were RIGHT about compassion towards the people of this world. When the members and leaders of Wordwide were telling you that you were wrong for what you were doing as a EMT, helping people, they were wrong. The bible does not say that it is the job of those in the church to punish the people of the world. The Bible does say that it is God's job to take care of the people who have not been called to the truth. I just stumbled upon your site and found it intersting, but my beliefs have not changed and will not change. Your page and articles helped to see how Satan will work to deceive the strongest members of the Church. You were on the right track until you let yourself believe in the Worldwide organization, and when it let you down, you were lost.

God has blessed my life, and the lives of my family members and I can see him working in our lifes. I don't think it was just chance that I happened upon you, but it was a lesson in how Satan works. I will not attempt to try and change you, that impossible for me to do. You have made up your mind. All I know is that my beliefs are right. If they are not, then I will have lived a good life without bitterness. The truth is my freedom, and the only truth is God's Word. I don't believe in an organization, but in the Word of God, the Bible. Forgive me if I angered you, but I have learned an interesting lesson from your experience. It is sad to me to see a grown man sulking after something for so long. How long has it been since Worldwide has been dead? Many years. Don't let the sun set on your anger and let things go.

Peace to you,




After reading your last letter, my respect for you has skyrocketed. It's amazing how much we can communicate when we treat each other with respect. I didn't realize you were an adult, so I apologize for treating you like a kid.

I also appreciate the fact that you did your homework on me. Most people don't take the time.

I did have a rough time of it, but compared to many others, my experience was not that bad. You might want to check out the "WCG Horror Stories" at the website. Some of those people really had a tough time!

Now I'm curious. I had assumed that you were a member of the WCG or one of its spin-offs. Now I'm not so sure. Your point about me putting my faith in a man-made organization suggests that you are not a WCG member, or at least have not been for very long. I left that group in 1992, and during my entire time there, you had no choice but to accept them as the "only true church of God". In other words, if I hadn't accepted the organization as infallible, I would have been thrown out on my ear. (That would have been a good thing, except that I really believed it was God's church, and therefore the threat of exile meant I would have been cut off from God.) Your reading of the Bible tells me that you have a much healthier outlook about religion than I ever did.

I'm very glad that you and your family have had a positive experience with Christianity. My perspective on that is that, if it works for you, great. But it doesn't work for me. However, I don't think I'm sulking. I've been quite happy these past ten years, much happier than during all the 44 years that preceded them. Still, I can see where you might think I'm sulking, because I still write articles that condemn the WCG and Herbert Armstrong.

What you may not have realized is that, for every person like yourself who has had a good experience, there are dozens - maybe even hundreds - of WCG members who have been through hell, and in many cases are still going through hell, all because they are trapped in an overbearing religion that crushes the life out of them. My articles are written for those people. Not many are willing to read them, but now and then someone does, and hopefully they can be saved from that experience by learning that others have also been through it and have escaped. Once they escape, many go on to other Christian churches and find happiness there; others find happiness in freedom from all religion. That decision is theirs to make; my only role is to let them know there are alternatives.

(Incidentally, it isn't my website. Someone else set it up and, like you, I stumbled across it about four years ago. I just contribute articles now and then.)

I hope all this makes sense to you (even though you disagree with my choices). My intent is not to change you, or anyone. Just to tell where I've been, and that anyone living in bondage does not have to continue doing so. Thanks for the conversation, and I wish you the best.

John B

After taking in the latest emails and articles on this site, I felt compelled to make just a few comments..

To Theo? "Growing Pains"  I don't know that I've ever heard a more horrific tale. The abuse from religious 'authority' is unmatched by any other. And while my own experience never came to this level, I'd like to just say that you CAN "get over it".or as Russell suggests also :  Getting Over It Doesn't Mean Getting Away From It. , use this unique, personal perspective you have to combat religious abuse wherever you find it. Perhaps, like some others, and me, you've found a 'calling' worthwhile here. Isolate the snakes when you find them out... use your unique knowledge and experience to help make it so others aren't abused as you were. Write more. Stay in touch.

To JohnB and Bill Fairchild: The Middle of the Movie & Christian Founding Fathers?

 Two excellent pieces, and they compliment each other perfectly! Many Americans (most nowadays?) have no idea how the beginning of the movie "America" really went. Most don't seem to care. Thanks, Bill, for running us through a good primer on our history. I also agree with your premise that the number of Xtians within the group of Founding Fathers is always exaggerated; for political reasons and by those with the most to gain by their inept, revisionist histories, the Xtians themselves. The value of looking at the entire picture.. The Whole Movie... The history of the WCG+ and Herbert W. and of America is something so valuable I can't put a price tag on it.

 To the punk with the illiterate keyboard fetish: the "reddragonsyndicate".. Thanks for reminding us that, sometimes, there IS a good reason for the gene pool to be refreshed...

Regards all, MikeM


Hi Editor:

I was impressed with Russell's article "Getting Over It, Doesn't Mean Getting Away From It."  He expressed it better than many others on conflicting sites that criticize and say that we're NOT over it.  Russell is correct and obviously understands that getting over a problem, does not necessarily mean forgetting it - or "let it lie and forget it.  Just let it go," as many have said, both to the Site Editor and me.  Russell's again correct in suggesting that we must NEVER forget what we've learned in WCG.  Critics of the PT Site might do well to read the article.  Some of these pebble-brained characters have obviously never studied psychology.

To "get over" something takes three fundamental steps psychologically.

1)  We absorb the shock of the actual happening.

2)  We become angry at what happened, and usually say:  "Why me?"

3)  The final step is the ACCEPTANCE of what has happened, and then we move on with our lives.

Since it is this final step that so many critics fail to understand, as the actual closure of getting over the WCG &+ horrors, then I'd suggest they go back to their Psych #101.  When "acceptance" is accomplished, then the damaged person, their psyche, and their lives have learned the lesson, and they are over the incident.  It is then that we all move on.

This is in NO way to suggest that we simply "forget" what happened.  Anyone who does that with a cult is gullible and still vulnerable - to say the least - because they'll just go into another cult.  Nor does this suggest that anyone who has accepted the situation should not warn others with the indisputable evidence of such a cult malevolence.

Since most contributors to this Site have gone through all the above three steps, then (each in their own way) can give something of their experiences in WCG+ so as those following on the same crazy path won't make the same mistakes.  All anyone can do is to warn those who follow many of these ego-maniacal, money-mad cultmasters.  That warning is not done out of vindictiveness, but it's simply done out of an understanding love of those new or present members who are special folks that can be (or still are) intimidated, bullied, fleeced, and could probably die prematurely as a result of the teachings from a bunch psychotic madmen.

It is a responsibility, I think, of anyone who has learned lessons the hard way to pass on the experiences, so others that we may never meet, won't hurt in the same way.  The choice is then up to the reader, but at least, the harvest of the Painful Truth has been sown.

Best.  JohnO.

From: Frank Tillman

Subject: hey I got a good idea for you

why don't you get a life and do something besides worry about stuff that happened to pea brained individuals nearly 20 yrs ago

he's dead! plain and simple he died your monster is not going to hurt you or anybody else! you are free from all that frustrated you! you can live now!

Just a quick note. I just stumbled into your web site looking for information about a long forgotten acquaintence. I am no longer associated with WCG or any branch of the WCG. I am 47, I was born into the church, attended Imperial for 12 years in Pasadena and graduated from AC. I worked in Mr. HWA's home; but did not know him well. I did know GTA fairly well as one of his son't was a best friend growing up.

I am sorry for your hatred and bitterness. My experience was obviosuly not your experience; or should I more accurately say that my reaction has not been the same. They are obviously your reality; but then we get from life what we give it.

What finally got me to email you and stumble back out of your web site was your criticism, and posting the criticism of those that agree with you about the bio of Stan Rader after he died. Believe me, I am no fan of Stan Rader, but what do you want written of you in the paper after your death? I hope you find a way to forgive (not a religious term), and move on. You really provide no useful service here, to yourself or anyone else.


(last name witheld, I do manage to aviod death threats but I question your emotional stability)

From: "Mike Cain"


There was one person who sent me a comment on the recent article "Who" which I wrote for the site.  I don't know who he is but his comment was very brief.

He said:   "excellent article, it really kicks in about 1/2 way down"

However, he did leave me an article by a John Horgan, a writer of scientific articles.  For space sake, I've chosen to leave the link.  There's oodles of folks out there with zillions of questions, and very few answers.  John's article in the link, will ask many questions too.  However, many of the Site's readers like to delve into these things, and I thot they might like to read what he had to say.  I found it interesting.  Here's the link.

Best 4 now.  JohnO.

Hopefully this gets to you, as I'm not really sure this is a real email address: (  Anyway: before you call people "losers" and "retarded" and "stupid", etc., it might well behoove you to learn to spell and to write in a fashion that is articulate and grammatically correct. You have only proven that those who cling to Armstrongism, and the worship of Herbert W. Armstrong (no matter what you may term your devotion to him and his synthetization and plagiarism of various ideas that he did not get from some personal "six-month study of the Bible"), are in dire need of education and instruction in logic.

Yours for enlightenment,

Francis P

The following link gave me a background of what may have been going on in the minds of the Worldwide Cultmasters.  Please remember these guys were NOT stupid, they were only crooks and they refused to see that us, ordinary, regular folks had a brain too.  Eventually, we proved just-a-little tad smarter.  Thankfully.  The methodology used here could have been used in part on all of us.  I personally think they used many principles here.  However, people must make up their own minds. 

I believe our problem in WCG is that we were too trusting to see the real motive behind it. Most of us had honest and altruistic motives. They didn't. Eventually, all the crooks get exposed.  Here's the link.

Best 4 now.  JohnO.


 Well I have thought for a long time on what you said and the accounts of so many who died horrible deaths.

I could quote hundreds of accounts of people who say God has helped them in one way or another. I could list some stories of those who have gladly died for their faith in a Loving God. I would hold up this whole earth and all the resources in it as proof of a loving Creator. After all everything we need is on this planet. Yet there are those who argue that this world came about with out any help from "GOD".

 We as humans don't have time in our lives to prove everything we believe. If one was to say I only believe what I can prove/verify myself they would have to reject most of the books on history. The evening news, the paper, a friends account of anything could not be accepted as true. Ones only truth would be what ever you yourself did and nothing more. I have worked in labs and tested circuits long enough to know if you want to be absolutely sure about something you can run tests until you die and even then you can only say it most likely will do this or that under the listed conditions.

The main point I am getting at is my belief in a Loving God is at this point in time a matter of faith. My belief that A loving God inspired and preserved His Holy Book is a matter of Faith. I can share with you what I accept as proof.

I have been saved from death at lest 3 times. I have been healed after prayer a few times. I believe there is always an answer to prayers but they are not all yes, some are no, not now.

As far as a loving God being less kind than a human father I can't answer that one now other to say I have not experienced anything worse than what my dad allowed as I grew up.

So the only proof I have of a Loving God is this universe, a book, my personal experiences and the witness of those who know Him.

(Name Withheld)


I knew you couldn't come up with a rational answer, that's why I asked the question.


 I could quote hundreds of accounts of people who say God has helped them in one way or another.


 Come on. That doesn't prove anything. They could just as well believe that Casper the Ghost helped them and have as much proof.


 I could list some stories of those who have gladly died for their faith in a Loving God.


 Just because people die for something, does not make it true. The hijackers on 911 believed in a loving god. Does that prove that their god is the true loving god?


 I would hold up this whole earth and all the resources in it as proof of a loving Creator. After all everything we need is on this planet.


 Well, I never said that there was no god at one time or other. All I'm saying is that there is no evidence of a loving god NOW. And, if you want to use this argument as a proof, this world could have been created to be a much more habitable place to live without natural disasters, tornados, hurricanes, volcanoes, floods, giant hail stones, etc., not to mention flesh eating creatures that put human beings in danger of their lives. I would say that a god that cared about mankind would have done a better job. The evidence seems to point more towards our being the Sims of an eight year old "god-being" playing a computer game of Sim City.


 We as humans don't have time in our lives to prove everything we believe.


 No we don't, but I would hope that we would prove those things that affect us the most. I would think that it would be most important to prove which god to worship. I would think that, if there is only one true religion, it would be to our advantage to find the correct one rather than to waste our lives following a figment of our imagination.


 my belief in a Loving God is at this point in time a matter of faith.


 Faith being unquestioning belief in those things which cannot be proven. To have the necessary biblical faith, you cannot question the teaching of the religion without being a heretic. Instead of empowering people, Christianity, in fact, weakens people's ability to think rationally. Christian faith rejects reason, critical thinking, or contrary evidence. Is that healthy? Should a person have to turn their brain off to follow a god? If that is the case, how do you know you have picked the right god before you turn your normal, critical thinking thought processes off?


 His Holy Book is a matter of Faith.


 In spite of proof that it is full of errors and contradictions. Here is a question for you: why are people afraid to use the same criteria to determine the reliability of the Bible that they do for history books, technical books or any other book?


 I have been saved from death at least 3 times.


 The most we could say about an event whose cause is unknown is that the cause is unknown. You can't just attribute something to a mystical power. Or can you? I would imagine that there are Muslims that would testify many times over that Allah has helped them and healed them and saved them. How do you know that it is the god of the bible that did that for you? According to the Bhagavad-Gita, part of the sacred scriptures of Hinduism, the god Krishna claims that it does not matter which god human beings worship; it is Krishna who answers their prayer.

If no human had done anything, would you have still been saved from death? Would your god have saved you from death regardless? I hope you will not test this out the next time you are truly near death because the odds are definitely against you. God has got a horrible track record of helping people when other people are not involved in doing the actual work. Just the way things are. People do the work and god gets the credit. But only the credit. If the person dies or is not healed, it wasn't god's fault. "Sorry little Sally, leukemia is just one of my ways of showing that I love you."

Why is it that this god can only heal things INSIDE the body; things that can't be seen or proven? Is he bashful? Has a person, decapitated in a car wreck, had their head restored by this god? Or an arm? Or a finger? Or a fingernail? Surely this would be no harder to do than to heal a suspected ruptured appendix or cure an unseen cancer. So, a person had better hope that their medical problems are internal if they want a god to help them, otherwise they should have a really good doctor.

I would like to point out to you that you happen to be an unbeliever many times over with regard to all other gods than your own. You should examine what criteria you are using to reject Allah, Ahura Mazda, Zeus, Vishnu and the hundreds of other gods that you do not believe in, and ask yourself why it does not apply to the god you do accept. How is it that you have settled on the God of the Jews? Have you eliminated all other gods by painstaking research into their beliefs? How do you know you have the right god? Something as important as this should not be taken on faith. If you had been born in Saudi Arabia to Arabian parents, would you be a Christian today? Doubtful, I would say. So, if a person's religion or "faith" is determined by where they were born and what their heritage is, can anyone be held responsible for choosing the wrong religion?


 I believe there is always an answer to prayers but they are not all yes, some are no, not now.


 Tell me how god can answer even one prayer without taking away the free will of all other human beings from that point on into the future. Answering a prayer changes what would have been if the prayer had not been answered. If a person is healed and lives instead of dying, then that person is taking up a place on this planet that should not have existed. He is displacing someone in a job or a marriage or a car accident or a birth. People are born and die because of this intervention by a god. If one thing changes everything else changes. That takes away free will for all the rest of the people and takes away the future that they would have had if that person had died or been bedridden for the rest of his life. It would be the most incredible unfairness to have our lives affected by the answering of a prayer for a parking place, help on a test, getting a job or healing a disease. It is a continual shuffling of the deck of life and is mind-boggling in its implications and consequences. If there is only one answered prayer, mankind does not have free will. I would say that "god", if there is a god, does not and should not answer any prayers and that is good because that is the only way we can have free will. We have to realize that we cannot depend on this god to help us in any way. And that is good too because then you will be looking out for yourself and not trusting your life to a god that has given no evidence of caring one good shit about human beings.


 So the only proof I have of a Loving God is this universe, a book, my personal experiences and the witness of those who know Him.


 You haven't convinced me.

1. The Universe is cold and uncaring. As Darwin said, "What a book a devil's Chaplin might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering, low and horribly cruel works of nature!" A classic example is the Ichneumon wasp, who paralyzes a caterpillar and lays eggs in its body so her hatchlings can slowly devour its living flesh from the inside.

2. The book is flawed and cannot have been inspired by a perfect god.

3. Everyone, even atheists, has personal experiences and coincidences that are strange and unexplainable.

4. Witnesses to "faith" in something unprovable do not prove anything.

I wanted some proof of a loving god. Don't worry that you couldn't produce any; nobody else can either. Ask your ministers the same question and watch them squirm.



I liked your site about the Herbie and the WWCG. I found it funny and I can relate to it much. I was in it until I was 18 when the church started falling apart.  I mainly experienced the ruined childhood aspect of it. I could only imagine being part of it as an adult. Later I started believing other church doctrine, until finally one day I decided to think on my own and realized how retarded some beliefs/logics are.

Anyways, I consider myself kind of a spiritual Christian now. I've seen many supernatural events happen, so there's no way I'm an Atheist. I still pray and try to live like Jesus, but that's where it ends. I'm not paranoid like most mainstream Christians or quote scriptures for every action I make. I also don't blame everything I don't understand on demons.

My question to you is have you ever researched near death experiences at all? The media often will say they're just people's hallucinations while they're dying, but they leave out A LOT of info that has yet to be explained. The way people who had NDEs explain the whole "set-up" makes perfect sense. Here's a site if you haven't.




Thanks for your message.

Although some of the NDE testimonies are intriguing and may provide hope of a life after death to some people, I don't think there is any evidence that they are true.

It will be nice if there is a life after death but I am not counting on it.

When it comes down to it, what do you gain by believing in NDE? A little relief from the ever present knowledge that you are going to die?

As you say, there are a lot of things that need to be explained. You are not going to get any explanations until you die.

If I had the choice between a NDE and a DE (death experience), I would choose the NDE every time.

I guess NDE can provide a little hope for a person not attracted to any particular religion or for a person that needs to have their religious belief, (faith), reinforced.



"Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who is too ethical to become a minister."  (Author unknown) 

I copied and pasted the article for you below:

 Church unveils demolition plan for Ambassador By Gary Scott, Staff Writer PASADENA -The Ambassador Auditorium will be demolished unless the community finds the will and a way to preserve it, Worldwide Church of God officials announced Monday.

"Our mission for the auditorium is over,' said Bernard Schnippert, the church's director of finance and planning. "The church has subsidized the Ambassador's operations and maintenance for years, and can no longer do so. If it is to be a vital part of the Pasadena community, it will need the community's support.'

A nearfinal design for the 46acre Ambassad or project will be unveiled tonight at the last of three public meetings held by the church. The plan does not include the auditorium, Schnippert said, although an alternative has been prepared in case preservation is possible.

He said the auditorium will survive only if some public or private entity raises the funds to both purchase it and pay for its ongoing operations. Whatever is done, it will not involve a subsidy from the church, he said.

"It is a matter of the community as a body saying it wants the auditorium to be preserved and working with the church to once again make it a public venue,' Schnippert said. "We just can't mislead people and have them wake up someday with a bulldozer at the door and have them say they weren't forewarned.'

The announcement came as a shock to Alice Coulombe, chairwoman of the Ambassador Auditorium Committee. The group has been working with the church to try to find the money needed to keep the auditorium from the wrecking ball.

"I am absolutely amazed, I am heart-sick,' Coulombe said.

She said she talked with Schnippert several days ago and was told there would be two development plans, one with and one without an auditorium, but was not aware the church was threatening demolition.

"I think probably they are hoping to light a fire, hoping there is somebody or group out there that says this cannot come down,' said Coulombe. "But I don't know that.'

Over the last several months, the church has been working with consultants to prepare a development plan for the Ambassador campus. Much of the debate has centered on how many houses would be built in the mostly residential project. But the last attempt to develop the area, the failed Legacy Project, failed in part because there was no agreement on how to pay for the auditorium.

With the church now acting as its own developer, there is more flexibility over the auditorium's future, Schnippert said.

Under Legacy, an attempt was made to create a Community Facilities District, whereby a bond would be issued to buy the auditorium and fund some public improvements. Ownership of the building would be transferred to the city and the bond would be paid for through an assessment on residents in the new development. An appraisal commissioned by the city found the auditorium was worth $22 million a price some on the council questioned. This does not take into account the ongoing costs to maintain the auditorium, Schnippert said.

When the Legacy Project was being considered earlier this year, the church listed maintenance costs at about $350,000 a year.

Built in 1974, the auditorium originally served as a place of worship for the church. It then was opened to the public as a performing arts venue.

"It received nationwide acclaim for both the quality of the performances and the quality of the auditorium,' said Schnippert.

It is not listed as an historic place, said Susan Mossman, Pasadena Heritage's executive director, but has been listed as a "very significant modern building.'

"I would be most distressed if in fact it is threatened with demolition,' said Mossman. "On the other hand, the challenges of operating that venue are well-known. It is very expensive.'

She said the announcement from the church was "not a total shock,' but added: "I didn't think anyone had given up on it.'

The public meeting will be held tonight from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. at the Ambassador Administration Building, 300 W. Green St. Parking is free.

-Gary Scott can be reached at (626) 578-6300, Ext. 4458, or by email at



For sometime now I have been visiting your site and reading the information available there. I have also visited the msngroups site with respect to the hundreds of posts made by persons I presume were graduates of Ambassador University and have a need to stay in touch with one another in their internet alumni association.

Although I have found much of the information posted at your site both interesting and revealing and am of the opinion that it is probably quite helpful to anyone who has been badly burned by the fires of cultism and wants to heal and move on, I find the AmbassadorUniversityAlumni group to be dark, dreary and filled with a membership of former cult members who have now created their own new cult with its leadership being made up mostly of those who appear to be their "official" spokesperson; i.e., "Corey W.", "Slut Twinkie", "DeathShallSiezeThem", "Deacon", "HMongoBicep" and a couple of others.

Two "individuals" I find somewhat amusing, "HolyRomanRocketMonkey", and interesting, "PaperEgret", both actually intrigue me to the extent that one seems to be on an odyssey in search of an acceptable and reliable truth within the community of the Bible's and the Church's best known and/or most quoted critics/detractors and the other seems to have healed from WCG and AU abuses in having come to a long-proclaimed and widely accepted understanding of the truth about the TRUTH.

Nonetheless, since the majority of the posters at the aforesaid site seem to have moved beyond raw anger and a feeling of hopelessness at being betrayed to a new found religion of self-proclaimed membership in intelligentsia through self-study and "intense" self-education similar in nature to that spoken and written of by their former abusive leader's claims to his having unlocked and resolved all of the "Mysteries of the Ages" I have created the attached diploma and offer it as a "sheepskin" which they may use to wrap about themselves to assist in warming their beings and existence while sojourning through so many bone-chilling realities within the cold and darkened world of misery loveth company.

Regards, Kenneth



Thanks for your message. I've never looked at any of the msn groups. I have no interest in what any of them think; too much confusion there. I can see how a person may find them interesting, though. They do come up with some interesting internet names.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough storage space and bandwidth for your diploma; I've had to trim down my images to practically none. It is well done.



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