The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email To The Editor
(Page 61)

(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)



Once again, please take John Putterman's name off the list of Worldwide Church of God, UCG, and any other list. He is not part of those groups anymore. As you can see, he is not on the list.

The list is on your page. index.htm/disfellowship.htm

Thank you


Well, John, I'll be happy to take you off as soon as you want your name on the Ministerial Apology page otherwise, go to hell.

Thank you, Editor



I am sad to read many of the comments on the page from other "so-called" christians. I am also sorry for what the church put you through in the past. It is a sad story. See, I don't want to be those kinds of people who weigh people down with such threats. Even though I won't sign the apology page because I don't want my name to be on anything except for being a living desciple of Jesus. I am a young man who wants to love people the way Jesus did. I don't want anyone to go to hell but to recieve Salvation.

God Bless,


I love your Painful Truth website. There's so much to read, it's hard to keep up!

I was glad to see the Graveyard Church of God on the PT website (as it seemed to have gone away for awhile), but the last couple days I have not been able to get onto it. I get the message "the specified server cannot be found."

I've tried logging onto it from other "directions" but I get the same message. What's going on? Please bring it back because I know a lot of people that find it great fun! (We love all those pictures of Herbie). Also, is it possible for the disfellowshipped paper to be reinstated?

Thanks for all your work in bringing us the Painful Truth (and links).



GYCG is down temporarily. I'm working on it. Thanks for your support.


just read some dribble on your site. sounds like the ramblings of an emotionally unstable and biblically unground person. what's this about editing out bible verses, is the Bible not the word of God fit for instruction and reproof. sounds like somebody is affraid to open the book.


Thank you for your kind message.

is the Bible not the word of God

Well, present your proof that it is the word of god. Do not quote the book. You cannot prove that a book has authority by quoting from the book. You need outside proof.

sounds like somebody is affraid to open the book.

Read my
FAQ, asshole.

Hi Editor

I was wondering if you knew anything about the whereabouts of Lin. I got no information from ESN except the cryptic statement that she "was in the background" in supporting the evangelical efforts of the people now running the entity.

Lin and I had a number of contacts after my resignation in '92. I visited her in CT and gave her all my WCH literature going back to the 50s. I also loaned her a number of books she never returned. She also vested me in NH and we both attended a freedom rally near me.

Our last contact was about three years ago when she hinted that she was sympathetic to the idea of holocaust denial. My last email to her was to ask if that was exactly what she meant. She never responded.

I've had several exchanges with Mike Noonan who was her gofer for many months. He told me more about her personality.



Don't know.

ESN and The PT had a parting of company when they wanted a link from my site but would not link to my site.

They can go to hell, if they want to believe in hell.


I enjoyed the articles and felt close to those abused by the (wwcog<does not deserve caps!)
I was connected to the wwcog for some 26 years. When I left, it was a choice I had to make, as it was affecting my 3 children. The talk down to attitude was a little much to say the least and Jesus Christ would have no part of that! ( You will not rule over these as the scribes and the Pharisees) He made it very clear to those that teach the flock. Anyway, it was clear to me and painful to leave, but I could not stay as we are commanded to flee from those that do such terrible things.
Now the important part! I began to ask myself questions as to why all of these terrible things happen? So, I began to do some research of my own, WITHOUT suppositions, and just believe what Jesus Christ and the Apostles taught about what is the correct teaching in my Bible.
I threw away any and all formula's, that on the surface seemed correct, but were only born out of a lot of error's and self made opinions. ALL are taught by Peter's writings, not to have our own personal opinion. (Just as Peter states<no private interpretation.) I also found, yes! We can interpret, but not to change something to our own meaning! To interpret correctly is to say it in our own words but the meaning has to be the same. Just as the four gospels are said differently but in fact, are the same. This is where many errors happened in the wwcog and are still being made by them and many others. The learning process must be that of Jesus Christ and our will, becoming the will of the father! Not our will , but His will!
So! With this bit of correct knowledge, I found out just how far off the beam and the Father's spirit we really were. By using all of the above information I put together an article. The title is> ("Who Taught Us About The Kingdom Of God?") READ The Incredible below!
Who was it, that taught us about the Kingdom Of God?


(A bunch of blithering Bible babble edited out here. Editor)


This is most important for all Christians; after all, if we do not have a clear map and instructions on how to enter into another country, how are we to enter into His kingdom? Do not be blind-sighted and do not let the wicked one in Mt. 13:19 come and catch us unaware.

 Your friend, Bud


I began to do some research of my own, WITHOUT suppositions, and just believe what Jesus Christ and the Apostles taught about what is the correct teaching in my Bible.

You are starting at the wrong place. First you have to prove that the bible is the word of god. You will not be able to do that. You will have to excuse a very evil god and excuse a book riddled with errors and confusion. Is this the kind of god that you really want to worship? Not me.

Once you have proven that the bible is not the word of god, you will also see that Jesus never existed and does not exist today. He is a myth.

Then you will understand that there is no god that cares about mankind. Any proof that there is would be welcomed. Don't give me anything other than physical proof.



My people are destroyed from lack knowledge,,and with that attidtude we would all be doomed.....



My people are destroyed from lack knowledge,,

Just because you THINK you have knowledge, does not mean that you HAVE knowledge.

 I am still waiting for your PROOF that your knowledge is truth.

and with that attidtude we would all be doomed.....

Just because you think with all your heart that you are not doomed, does not mean that you are not doomed.

Realizing that what you believe by faith is not FACT, will allow you to make the most of this life, which is the only life you know for sure you will ever have.

With your attitude, you are doomed to give up this life for a hope, based on nothing but fiction and fairy tales, for a life after death.


Donald W Samples, Church Pastor, resigned for WWCOG July 7,1977.  Feel free to add my name to the Exodus under Ambassador Report, specifically the Executive Exodus file.

Thanks, don s


I really can't edit the AR. It is not a document in "work" but merely a reproduction of the original.

Be happy to put you on the Ministerial Apology page, if you ever reach the point where you want it and qualify.


They were defeated in Kansas, so they tucked their tails between their legs and headed for Ohio. I am speaking of these proponents of "Intelligent (Insidious) Design who are busting their asses to get their religious agenda into Ohio's public schools. If they think Kansas was tough, wait until they try it in Ohio. They are already facing an uphill battle. Columbus is the home of Ohio State University, and the state itself contains many colleges. They all teach science and the theory of evolution. These stupid zealots don't realize what the hell they are up against.

Our daily paper, the Columbus Dispatch, constantly publishes articles and letters from professors of these various colleges expressing their opinions about the absurdity of including I D in the curriculum. Even the Dispatch editorial staff is against it. Today's (Sunday) editorial takes up a third of a page stating its own opinion. I would like to quote just some portions of a very fine article that argues why Intelligent Design should not be included as an alternative, so to speak, to science. The article begins with this bold heading:

 Evolution spat Battle between faith, science unnecessary

 (some quotes)-----"Implicit in the question is the idea that the theory of evolution is a philosophy or a system of belief somehow akin to a religious faith and that evolution and its proponents therefore undermine and displace other religious faiths" ---"Teaching evolution to the exclusion of other religious ideas about the origins of life would be a case of religious suppression.

But, in fact, evolution is not a faith; it is science. And science is nothing more than the attempt to understand the physical world and its natural processes. By definition, science limits itself to natural processes and leaves questions about the supernatural to religion. In other words, science quite deliberately eschews any entanglement with the spiritual and the supernatural.

For more than a century now, evolution simply has been the best natural explanation for the fully established fact that newer forms of life have, over vast amounts of time, evolved from earlier forms of life.

Evolution is not something that millions of people, including many who are religious, have accepted on faith but rather because observable facts in the fossil record, in biology and other scientific disciplines support the idea."

(And finally)------"science could not have done so much good for humankind if its search for the secrets of the natural world had been hobbled by preconceived notions derived from religion.

If science had been subordinated to the religious idea that disease is God's punishment for sin, then today there would be no vaccines and no antibiotics, because such medicines would have been a blasphemous affront to God's will. Had this view prevailed, many who are reading these words right now, would be unborn or dead." Unquote.

You know, Ohio State has a helluva good football team, known for its fighting spirit and its ability to win big ten championships. And I feel certain that same kind of fighting spirit will kick those asshole I D advocates clear out of the state.

We know the rest of the country is watching the outcome of this squabble.



OK, here's a quick and dirty idea I had. Believe it or not, a christian friend of mine, however unintentionally, gave me this idea.

Baptisms are supposed to be a symbolism of becoming a christian, right? Well, for those of us who have been unfortunate enough to have gotten to the point of being baptized, I propose an "anti-baptism". There are many forms this can take, but here's the idea that I have:

You scrub your hands with soap and water. This symbolizes washing yourself clean of the evil influences of religion. Then, you take a dollar bill (any denomination will do), and a piece of paper, and you burn it, symbolizing the money that you have given to the church of your choice, and symbolizing a page from the bible you were bound to for so long. Flush the ashes down the toilet or rinse them down the gutter or something similar.

And then, dry your hands. This symbolizes the reversal of the immersion baptism you are getting the water off of you and wiping yourself clean. You may also use a blow drier if the facilities are available.

Don't do it solemnly. Whoop and holler and have all sorts of fun.

And after you do all this, stick one freshly washed middle finger defiantly in the air. You're free.


About your first response:

  - fullfilled Bible prophecies

  - coroberation of events and people of the Bible

      by secular and outside sources

  - text that teaches a way of life that if practiced

      does actually lead to blessings and prosperity

I'm not worried about how much someone claims ro read   of the Bible - one has to be able to "rightly devide

  the word of truth" and come to the correct conclusion

Have a nice day!


 YOU WROTE: fullfilled Bible prophecies

REPLY: Ridiculous. If Christians had any irrefutable evidence that their prophecies actually have come true or will come true, then the whole world would believe them. The fact of the matter is that every "so called prophecy" in the bible can be explained or refuted.

YOU WROTE: coroberation of events and people of the Bible by secular and outside sources

REPLY: So, just because some of the things or persons in the bible actually happened or existed, that makes the book the "word of god?" My friend, you are very gullible. There are millions of other books in existence that can be corroborated by events and outside sources. I will have to assume that you, using this criteria, also believe they are the "word of god."

YOU WROTE: text that teaches a way of life that if practiced does actually lead to blessings and prosperity

REPLY: So, any book that will tell you how to prosper and live a good life is the word of god? I submit to you that there are many, many of these types of books but most of them do not have an evil god in them that goes around killing people that will not follow him.

Regardless of that, go to my Acts of God page. Tell me that ALL of the people that were trying their best to follow your god and your god let die agonizing, miserable deaths, were actually being blessed and prospering. If this book cannot be relied upon to bring these blessings, if your god cannot be relied upon to fulfill the promises in the book, what is the point of following either one? A promise of a life after death that nobody can prove will happen? That is about all you will get out of that book.

YOU WROTE: one has to be able to "rightly divide the word of truth" and come to the correct conclusion

REPLY: Your god makes it very hard for a person to find out what "truth" is. You have to read this book that is very confusing and contradictory with a lot of things in it that are just plain wrong. Get a little truth from here, a little from there. Put it all together then divide it and then come up with the right conclusion. I gather, since there are so many different churches and beliefs, supposedly founded on your bible, that most of them are wrong. In fact, only one of them can be right. That really narrows down how many people this god is willing to have in his "family." Doesn't sound like a very loving "father" who would make finding and following so hard to do.

Sorry, but I am not interested in such a god. If he wants me to follow him, he will have to come and get me. I need some proof before I will believe. I've got this bad habit of using my brain, something Christians cannot be accused of.

You have a nice day too.


Sorry to hear that you are so sour

God is not trying to call everyone now "the truth is vieled" ... because if he was he would be failing, God does not and will not fail

Most of the people in the United States (and probably the rest of the world) profess a belief in God (gods). And most of them say that they try to please him or be good, but lets face it they are hypocrits... conceed for a moment that the Bible is God's communication to mankind, it plainly states how to live and how to deal with others [Ten Commandments and the sermon on the mount]... if people actually read the Bible and lived its teachings the world would really be different

face the Bible (as a guide to living) is not to be lumped with get rich quick and pyramid scheems or self help books

I hope that God does not have to come get you.


LOOK! Don't send me anything else unless you have some proof of what you believe. Otherwise, what you think doesn't matter one good shit to me.

YOU WROTE: God is not trying to call everyone now "the truth is vieled"

REPLY: Don't tell me what god is trying to do unless he talked to you and told it to you. Then you can prove that to me too.

YOU WROTE: conceed for a moment that the Bible is God's communication to mankind

REPLY: I will not concede for a moment that the bible is gods communication. It is full of errors. What kind of god would do that to people?

YOU WROTE: if people actually read the Bible and lived its teachings the world would really be different

REPLY: Oh, yes it certainly would. Women would continue to be second class citizens. Children would be stoned to death for disobedience. God would be killing people who don't believe in him. People would be executed for breaking the Sabbath. Etc.

YOU WROTE: I hope that God does not have to come get you.

REPLY: That is exactly what a loving father would to a lost child. I'm here, ready and willing to believe. I just need some proof. I will not turn my brain off as you are so willing to do.

Alexander, you are incredibly naive and obviously not very educated. Go away and come back in ten years and tell me what you think then.


 I would like to say that what was once preached in the Worldwide Church of God is now preached in the Church of God, who broke off of United Church of God, who in turn broke off of the Worldwide Church of God. If your wandering, David Hulme is now the President of the Church of God, and although we are pretty small right now compared to what WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD once was, we still believe in what Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong once taught because it is the truth even though we have expanded on it some since we now know more. The only reason why David Hulme was fired from the United Church of God was because most of UCG was going down the wrong path. And that is all that I have to say.


 A. Anderson


Just for my records, is your official name "Church of God" or is there some qualifier for that? There can only officially be ONE Church of God and I thought that was taken a long time ago or Herbie would have taken it. I need to know the official name of another crazy cult.

It is a sad thing that there are people that still believe all this absolute drivel and are still being misled. David Hulme should be ashamed of himself.

 Hello Editor,

I have enjoyed your website, The Painful Truth, as it is the first of any kind of material that I have come up on of the revealing sort directed toward hwa and the wcg.I never knew about the Ambassador Report or any material that discounted wcg in any way. Our "ministry" did their "work" on us very well. I detest what has happened and I am angry. I have been out of the "church" for 6+ years and I am only getting madder. I am struggling with actual hate. I hope it is hatred toward actions and not toward the person. Although, when I think of any of "them", I do not feel so generous. Yes, I'd like to see more apologies from these people but I doubt there will be many in coming. I appreciate your honesty and that is something that we of the "old school" have not had much given to us. I can understand how some people can feel threatened by your honesty in your beliefs. I may not agree with every thing you say but then again it is your website and I can just click onto something else, can't I? I do agree with your exposing the crap! More of it should come to light. I enjoyed The Graveyard Church....and I thought that my computer was messed up when I couldn't get it. Then I read a letter from one of your readers who couldn't get it and your response saying it was down.( I am new to internet)

Though I do believe in God, I do not believe in the god of the churches. I do not believe that He is involved in people's lives like we have been taught. I simply do not know what He is doing or where we are going. I cannot "prove" to anyone that He exists except to look at the world around me and my own existence. I do not attribute everything to Him--good or bad . Sh-t happens! Good things happens! I do not know!!!!! I want to be honest too. And I do not know!!! Thanks for your honesty, it is refreshing. So it steps on people's toes. They'll get over it. And I know enough about you from your writings that it really doesn't matter to you if they don't. I'll continue to peruse your website and enjoy.



Hi. I just wanted you to know that I take to heart what has been revealed about the Real Garner Ted. I have to agree with just about everyone else, he does speak very well on his TV broadcast. But I do realize that a false prophet will sound convincing or else he would not be able to deceive anyone. I was really surprised to see how big of a hypocrite Mr. Armstrong is. It's really scary. I had already thrown away ALL of the material sent to me from his organization because of some things that I heard about him before. But coming across the info you provide concerning him really did it for me. Again I say 'Thank You'. By the way, could you please do me a favor? I would like to get the file posted called "Into the bed with Garner Ted". I'm having a hard time getting it from the newsgroup. I did not get a chance to see the videotape from the Geraldo show and really would like to. If you could do this I would be most grateful.

Again Thank You very much.


I am married to one of the crazy people who have put Herbert Armstrong on a pedestal instead of our Father. Jerry truly believes he is a prophet of this generation and sent here by "Yah" to save the world. He is the most violent angry negative abusive man I have ever met in my life and I can't get him out of my life. He says I am stupid to "Yah's" word and a plastic "Christian" This is a cult isn't it. Help me to understand and know what I am dealing with. I am terrified.


Yes, it is a cult.

You might want to let him read of all 208 of herbies failed prophecies. But, I don't think even this will dissuade him from what he WANTS to believe. Most of these prophecy nuts will not change their beliefs in the face of any proofs.

You have to decide for yourself whether you love him enough to stay with him.

Get some counseling from people that can help you.

Realize this: you are not going to change him. You can only change what you do.

Just because he is ruining his life with his crazy beliefs, doesn't mean that your life has to be ruined too. This may be the only life you ever get; make the most of it.



 I read an article sometime ago concerning religious wars while looking at your site. The author pointed out how both sides pray to God. The article also pointed out how little children are molested routinely in other countries. I would like to read it again. Could you help me in locating it?

Thank you,


I'm not sure what article you are referring to but you might want to do search on the site. Too many articles for me to remember them all. Also, try to remember if you found it on the main page towards the bottom, that would mean it is a more recent article. Then you can look on the dropdown menu and see what the more recent articles are, towards the bottom of the list.

Regarding the molestation of children, see . Just an incredible amount of information on how children around the world are routinely sexually abused and have been down through the years. Apparently that is and has been the "norm" in many countries all down through history. A very sad commentary on the human race.


Just ran across your Web site after years without any serious trip down the nostalgia highway. Anyway, it all made me remember some folks and the inevitable question; "Wonder what ever happened to....".

So, bottom line is that I would be interested in receiving an e-mail from anyone that may remember a somewhat recalcitrant former "Port' editor and all-round unrepentant "scum sucker" who remains much the same.

Gerry R. Ghearing 


Regarding previous message:

The official name is Church of God, An International Community. Well, I must say that I feel that you are the one that is being misled instead of me or anybody in our church. It is a sad thing if someone doesn't believe what David Hulme is teaching because he and the other ministers in our church are teaching what is the truth, and I guess some people jsut can not accept.


You are right: I do not accept as truth things which cannot be proven. You cannot prove that Hulme or any of your ministers are preaching anything that is TRUTH. If you wish to mindlessly believe things that is your business. I prefer to use the one thing that I know "god" gave me to decide what truth is, my brain. That would make it impossible for me to believe the teachings of Hulme.


Just read the slander you have been saying about Mr.Herbert Armstrong, I feel sorry for you when the day comes when you have to stand in front of Jesus Christ ,and God the Father for the things that you are saying, funny thing that you waited until he died to come up with this slander, if i was his family i would sue you for slander to his name I was a member of The World Wide Church for 25 or more years and i am proud to say , i don't believe a thing you say about him, May God have mercy on you whoever ,and whatever your names are. A true believer in what goes around comes around.

Fred C Gray <>

Briefly, my name is Jaget. I am an Indian, presently I am in Oman, working. I came in contact with WCG in 1981. Disillusioned I left wcg in 94-'95. WCG completely ruined my life.

 I happened to see your site yesterday. I spent an hour reading about HWA and his evil works.

 I just finished reading about the suicides. In India some members of wcg committed suicide.

 For lack of time I shall mention one such incident.

 Lynn was a member of WCG. He lived in Chennai, in South India. WCG taught its members to keep the Sabbath strictly. Because of Sabbath-keeping it was impossible to find job. So he could not find a job. He was distraught, quarreled with his mother (a member, too). The church severely reprimanded him. He jumped before a rushing train, died a ghastly death. The church announced that an accident claimed Lynn's life. He was around 29 years of age when he died.

 I was in Mumbai when this incident happened. A friend of mine, Antony, disfellowshipped from the WCG, told me all these things. Lynn was a good friend of mine.

 You can use this information for a good cause. You can also use my name.

 I would like to write more, about other suicides. I am at work now. I shall write some other time. I hope to read everything in the site.

 Please drop me a line, if you have the time.

 In all sincerity Jaget

i was reading your page and im sorry but it seems like you just have an ax to grind, your sources are crap. you have the ambassador reports, which was easily seen as a bunch of lies in the State of California vs. Worldwide Church of God. it pains me to see someone of your age be such a jerk. God will deal with you later for what you are doing, you are obviously a moron. incest? you believe his son who was disfellowshipped and wanted to take over WCG from his own father? you're an idiot.

Andrew drewski"


I just love the fact that you were able to co-op the evil name of Herbert W. Armstrong and use it in helping his victims recover!  Is that poetic justice, or what?  It appears that a "new door has opened" through which you will be able to reach many more people.  Way to go!

Best to you!

Bob E


Ain't it great?!! I hope he's spinning in his grave. Hehehehehehehehheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....................


Greetings! I am a system administrator (which is why I can't spell, punctuate or use caps) and I found your page from doing a search on fixing sendmail (UNIX e-mail server software if you care/did not know). None of this is relevant other then for a "hmmmm, I guess you cant always find what you want but you get what you need"! Anyhow I have been digging around your site for hours now and have plans for it on the Sabbath. Here is a little (long winded self centered) background. I believe that it is relevant. I am, however, sorry to be typical: I want something from you so I will make it as painful and exhausting for you as possible with verbiage. I will ease it up a bit for you by putting my real point at the end of this message after a break. If you want, skip to it. Of course, I think you should read this part too, cause I want help. ;)

Anyhow, I knew nothing of the worldwide church of god until after hwa's death. I came into the pcg and was learning from them until they told me I could not attend services until I quit smoking. Which I thought was a poor way to help someone! But anyhow, we were told that Tkach was a bad man and had undermined all of what hwa did and the worldwide church of god was now laodecia. Anyhow, I never heard a bad thing about hwa until I saw a mention of him doing something with his daughter on your site. Still haven't found details on that, but I'll keep lurking. Anyhow, I don't believe I am brainwashed. I don't believe that the church is right on all things but I have not been able to disprove it. I have constantly tried. I beg people to prove me wrong and crazy, but it's been a few years. Everybody is convinced I am a loony but no-one can help me understand why. Prove me a loony please!

Shortened to be concise rather then totally accurate:

Daniel describes history from past to present. It's pretty accurate as far as I can tell. Things that hwa and the pcg have prophesied have/are coming true. How does this fit into your collective opinions? How do you refute or deal with these things? What disproved the bible for you on the major points? I know there is a lot (o, that's what a "shift" key does ;) ) bad stuff in the bible. There is, of course, a lot of bad stuff around humans. But that does not disprove it. How do you deal with these "facts"? Or, more correctly, what made you realize this was irrelevant or incorrect?



I have spent 18 hours with your site. I feel pretty stupid. Mainly I am perplexed at myself. I thought I was practicing due diligence on the prove (see, can spell it ;) )all things deal. I guess that's why I looked at your site and have continued on. The verdict is still technically undelivered. This is only because I have not yet gotten to back up your incest claims from an outside source (not provided or linked by you, no offence). I have just been going over some of the old co-worker letters. I was flat out lied to by the pcg (not officially by ministry) about hwa's tactics on tithe collecting. If I had seen this typical crap before I would probably (I hope) been more skeptical. I have had issues with the pcg, being forbidden to attend services and the like, but I did not have issues with the bible. Well, not as many, the she bears were on my list of things to discuss with the big guy when I got there. But I see clearly that it is a house of cards (didn't hwa say something like that?) If one goes it all goes. Hwa would have to be the kingpin of cards (after 18 hours in this chair, the least you can expect is that I mangle a few metaphors ;) ). I am only left with the "how the f*** did I fall for that?!?!?" feeling. I started apologizing to friends through e-mail a couple of hours ago. It's scary, 18 hours ago, I knew the answers to all things. Now I only know that I am tired. Thanks.



Thanks! I no longer *know* all the answers, but oh, well. Guess I'll just have to be like everybody else. ;)

I'll be ok. I'll leave you gentlemen to your lives! I am thankful (in a generic sort of way vs. to god) that I did not have as much invested as you and others. I am sorry for your losses! But both you and others have done your good deed by opening my eyes! It is ironic: Armstrong disproves the bible, the bible disproves Armstrong and thier teaching is what set me free, "prove ALL things" ;) If I can ever be of help or buy you dinner, you know where to find me. I live in Tampa bay, FL so if your ever over here, e-mail me so I can shake hands at least!

Have good lives, gents! I should have one, my wife forgives me! At least I'll have one!

And on a side note: I can chat with god again. Standing. Like a man. With a cigarette (and enjoy it!).




Regarding herbies incest, see my FAQ #35. There are links to newspaper articles and etc. That is the most you are going to get. You have add up all the evidence and make your own conclusion. Get the book Herbert W. Armstrong's Tangled Web. Herb never denied it. This was all brought up in his divorce hearings. Most of the men that knew about it are too corrupt themselves to speak up. Money is more important than truth to them. The ones that did speak up were discredited as bitter or crazy. These crooks were/are very good at this game. Anyhow, if you can read #35 and still believe it didn't happen, I can't help you.

Yes, you remember herbie correctly, he said "if you can prove one part of the bible is not true, then you can't trust any of it." I agree with him on that.

Keep reading and learning. Don't believe anything without proof. That will keep you out of ALL religions. None of them can back up what they want you to believe. It is one big con-game pyramid scheme.


hi. no, this isn't another one of those hatemails from "loving Christians". i'm just a simple Christian, NOT from the Worldwide Church of God. i've haerd a bit about them, and they sound like BAD NEWS. there's a load of them at my uni trying to convert people. but i would not call that religion Christianity. it made me sad to read how angry you are, and that you seem to see all Christians as the same. i'm not into theology and religion. i believe in the bible. i love Jesus, and i want to make him happy in everything i do. i try to keep it that simple. i'm not accountable to any man, and no one is accountable to me. the wcc sounds way too judgemental to have anything to do with the God that i know. i'm not trying to get at you. just want you to know that not all us "loving Christians" are quite that bad. no, we're not perfect, but most of try to admit that we're not, and just enjoy being forgiven. (i am aware how sappy that sounds, but it's true).

i can't explain anything. i can't tell you why someone as beautiful and loving as Jesus is followed by such greedy, selfish people, or how his words could be twisted so badly. but i know what i believe. Hope things work out for you.

Luv, em.

And i didn't even quote the bible!



I don't have any problem with someone trying to follow the "teachings" of "Jesus."

I guess I don't understand how you can just "believe the bible" without getting "into theology and religion" but that is your problem, not mine. How people can "believe" something with absolutely no proof at all is not exactly a mystery to me, though, since I did it for 25 years. Why we did/do it is another matter.

All I can say is that you are living in a dream world, not the real world. If that gives you a happy life, what difference does it make?

Thanks for not quoting the bible. At least then I will read your message. So many of them, when I see the quotations, I just delete the whole message.

You really ought to work on your capitalization. Here is the rule: The first letter of the first word in a sentence gets capitalized. Also the word "I" or the "I" in "I've" or in "I'd," gets capitalized. I know it is easier to not have to hit that shift key but it makes your message a lot easier to read. I feel it is also showing disrespect to the reader that you don't care enough to at least try to have proper capitalization. I think Jesus would always capitalize and punctuate and this is something that you should strive to follow him in doing.


Can you please help me? I am conducting a research project and came across your web page. it is very well written. I am trying to find out what ages were the 700 wives and 300 concubines that king soloman had. i want to compare their ages to current statutory rape laws. If you dont know king soloman's wives and mistress's ages, then any guidance on what age biblical women were allowed to marry and/or have sex would be great.

thank you so much. i wouldnt bother you, but judging from your web page you seem very smart.

thank you,




Sorry but I have no information on this subject.

You might try looking at this page to see if this helps: email_051.htm#bibleinsultstowomen

Also try: men-women-gods-1.htm

Whether or not happenings in the bible would be statutory rape really should not be the point. They looked on women as property not as people. You can do with your property as you please. You can find plenty in the Bible to back that up. The god of the bible supported this idea. Or was it the people who wrote the stories in the bible that believed it and said that god wanted it that way? Seems like that is what happened, to me. Its interesting that the "god" of the bible is no smarter than the people that wrote the book. Is it likely that knowledge illiterate primitives who believed in ghosts, burning god bushes, demons and demonic possession, virgin birth, levitation, and raising the dead, and who also believed that a flat earth was the center of the universe, got anything right?

You are smart too if you will not believe anything anyone tells you without proof. Demand proof for everything.



Dear Editor,

Thank you for your reply.  I will certainly check those web pages.  As far as beliefs go, I am on the extreme fringe.  I am a reformed Jew.  Its very easy to be a reformed Jew b/c no one tells you what to believe...its like a salad bar, take what you want - and leave the rest.

Since a very young age I discounted the bible as anything more than an early attempt at codification of laws.  You must remember, that many of its writings were inscribed before things such as law enforcement.  It was a "scare you into submission" type thing back then.  Today, we have (for the most part) rational laws.  The bible is no longer needed.  Think about it, in the 1600's we were still burning WITCHES!  Can you imagine the superstitions believed in when some dipshit afflicted mankind with the bible?

Furthermore, the bible itself is very easy to dismiss logically.  The first few chapters do that.  If it took 6 days to create everything, how could man be separated from dinosaurs by millions of years.  The normal Christian response is, b/c a day to G is not a day to us.   Well, if that verse doesn't mean what it says it means, nothing in the rest of the book can be taken literally.

I know I am rambling, but I like talking to another logical thinker.

If Jesus did exist, why did he not tell any one anything useful such as, hey the earth isn't flat yall.  How could Noah have gotten 2 animals from everywhere if he didn't know that certain species were native to north America...

And he thought the earth was flat.  What, did he motor on down to Australia, pick up a kangaroo, then head for Antarctica and grab a polar bear?

If Adam and eve were the only people, we would all be inbred...becoming more retarded with a "de-evolution" rather than the known trend toward evolution of our species.

I could go on and on...

Anyways, my boss assigned the project to me, I would personally never use the bible  to support some major premise.  I am a believer in science.  I do not believe in a heaven or a hell.  I think when we die, we die, and that's it.  The idea of an everlasting soul borders on the ludicrous.  It is a creation for those who cannot and will not accept death.  In my opinion, death is exactly like prebirth.  You do not exist.  An everlasting soul would have had to exist prebirth, but does any one have a memory of such a thing - NO.  Of course, why would we need a body with eyes and a brain etc. If souls were able to survive into infinity.  Moreover, without a mind, the soul would not be able to remember second to second if it were in heaven or who really cares.

If you really want to see what the "gods" of past were, goto  --- that web site contains the proof of the wool modern society has pulled over everyone's eyes.  Modern society loves organized religion.  It deters the masses from seeking the real truth, and keeps those who care not about man's law in check...also check out a book (and documentary series) called Chariots of the Gods by von Daniken (don't know if I got the spelling right).   I only suggest these two things to you b/c you have obviously moved from one end of the spectrum to the other.  But you should not stop there...    Your website is excellent, and there is a definite need for it.  However, for your own benefit, I really suggest your now studying what science has to offer.  I hope that you write me again.  Like I said, there is nothing better than discussing all things with another free thinker.


Please consider posting Martin Zender's new book How to Quit Church Without Quitting God

You can find it at

I left the WCG in 1974, quitting church and putting God "on the shelf". Much has changed in my life in the last couple of years, for the good. I feel no animosity toward the WCG organization because as wrong as they were and even though they wrecked many lives they (we) are still all of God's children. God has never stopped loving any of His children and He never will.

My minister was Gerald Witte and the last time I saw Troy Witte he was a 'babe in arms'. Please ask Troy to read this book for an old friend he never knew.

I have fond memories of Troy's parents and the many times we "baby sat" Michelle and Jade.

Please do not give out this email address because it is my place of employment.

I hope you have a great day!


Shreveport, LA



YOU WROTE: God has never stopped loving any of His children and He never will

REPLY: If we are god's children, god ought to be in jail for child abuse. Seriously.

See my Acts of God page and show me a loving god.

It is not that we have left god, god left us a long time ago and has never returned. There are many of us ready and willing to welcome him back whenever he wants to show himself. We will forgive him for abandoning his children, if he has a good excuse.


Someone told me about a book called God's Debris.  I haven't read it, but it sounds like it might reflect some of your views about God.  I don't read a lot anymore.  I did read some of the stuff that you have on your site, and I was intrigued.  I ended up at your site when I was trying to write my own little diatribe about Holy Land.  These different religions are battling for these Holy Places that are just places to me.  I'm a Christian, and I never heard of any Christian Holy places that had significant meaning for all Christians.  But I've often heard about Israel and Palestine fighting over Holy Land.  Each group says the land belongs to them.  Just recently, the Church of the Nativity, a Christian church, came under fire (literally) as Israel and Palestine clash.  Now the Vatican is upset that this Holy place is being fired upon.  Wake up everybody.  People are being fired upon.  A building is just a building.  Land is just land.  But people are precious.  But I digress.  I wanted to tell you how I ended up here.  I was trying to find something about living temples, the hearts of men (and women).  My search criterion was "god builds his temple," and I ended up at your site.

Just because something cannot be proven doesn't mean that it isn't real or doesn't exist.  For some of the reasons you mentioned on your site, I do believe that there is a god.  I choose to believe that this god is the God of the Bible.  I can see how the Bible seems contradictory.  And I believe that there are flaws in the Bible because men/women are all flawed.  The Book has been interpreted and reinterpreted many times.  But Jesus is the Living Word of God, and I believe that He is living in my heart and in the hearts of all Christians.  I believe God's Spirit guides me and helps me to sort out truth from lies.  Of course, that makes it easy for me and anyone who believes the same way as I do to make God in our own image.  I realize that.  And there are times when I have doubts and I question God.  Sometimes I pick up a Bible and read a few verses relevant to whatever I might be questioning, and I always come back to Jesus.

Just about a week ago, I looked up the word "freethinker" in the dictionary.   Then I asked someone if a Christian could be a freethinker.  The person couldn't give me an answer.  What do you think?  This past year, I went outside the boundaries put up by the Christian religions that I have been involved with in the past, and I feel so free now, satisfied and sure.  Man puts so many limitations on God.  People say that God's love is unconditional and then they go and put conditions on it.  People say that if an individual isn't saved in this lifetime that they cannot be saved.  People say that God sent Jesus to save the world, and yet they say that not everyone in the world will be saved.  If Jesus is God and God sent him to save the world, I believe that He'll do that.  I believe that God is Love, unconditional Love.  You find that hard to believe because of the suffering that you've seen and endured.  And yet so many who have seen suffering and have endured suffering still have faith in God.  Are they grabbing at straws?  I don't think so.  I'm sorry.  I didn't want to get preachy.  I really didn't.  You touched me, so I stopped at your door to leave some thoughts.

If there is a god, He must be one of two things.  Either He must love every single one of us, or else we are all simply God's debris and He really doesn't care about any of us.  I believe the former.  We are all so unique and individualized that only a master craftsman could have created us.  And I don't believe that such a craftsman who pays such close attention to detail would just toss His creation aside.  There may be all kinds of banter about "if God really loves us, then why..."  I don't have the answers, at least not all of them.

Some Christians I know think that I'm a little deluded lately because I've strayed from orthodox Christian beliefs, and some of the non-Christian people I know think that I'm nave and gullible.  I am nave, but I'm not gullible although I have been in the past.  These things I know - Any self-respecting God, any God in His right mind, any God who is Love, would not want people to be forced to believe in Him; He wouldn't want people to come to Him out of fear of Hell; He wouldn't want people to believe in Him just because someone said to do so; He wouldn't want people to just "take it on faith."  Love has to be the reason.  Maybe your unknown god and my God aren't so different.  You've known Love.  You've loved.  Where did it come from?  Keep asking questions.  Don't stop just because you think that you have the answers.  I've felt the pain and grief of suffering and loss, but I would endure it again for Love.  I wouldn't want to go back in time and never know the objects of my love that have been taken away.  I'm glad that I had what I had.  And I hope that I've given something somewhere along the line.  That's about all I want to say.

You may do whatever you want with my words.  You may respond if you feel it necessary.  You can ask me questions, but I may not have answers.  You know what you know and you believe what you believe.  Same with me.  You may cite Bible verses to contradict my beliefs.  I'm sure such Bible verses exist.  I hope that your pain and suffering that began a long time ago has diminished, and I hope you remember and cherish the love that you once knew that never goes away.  And I hope that you know love now.

I believe that finding your site is a part of my Christian journey, and I thank you.





To answer one of your questions: No you cannot be a Freethinker and a Christian. A Christian must accept the Bible as the word of god, an absolute authority, and try to live by every word of the bible. A Freethinker would find this illogical. \-"thin-ker\ n : one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; esp : one who doubts or denies religious dogma - n or adj

Just keep thinking and proving what you believe. If you keep doing that, you will end up with true freedom. This is a process that will not happen overnight or even a week, month or year. It all depends on how serious you are about determining what you really can believe. Decide whether you believe just because you "want" to believe or whether you believe based on something provable. You must take one step at a time and if you don't take that next step, you will stay right where you are and be left behind in a trap.


Just because something cannot be proven doesn't mean that it isn't real or doesn't exist........  I choose to believe that this god is the God of the Bible.


I'm afraid you have departed from "freethinking" here. Freethinking does not mean just believing whatever you want to believe. It means you have to reason things out based on all the information and facts that you can gather.

Does "god" want you to believe things without any proof? Does god expect you to form your religious beliefs on "feelings" and not facts? Does god expect you to base your religious beliefs on a book filled with confusion, errors and downright unscientific information?

I would think that, in regards to something so important as how to worship god, there would need to be a little more evidence than we have as to the correct way that god wants that done. What if you "feel" it should be one way but it is really another way? All your life and effort will have gone for nothing. My main point would be that, if God really wanted us to worship "him" in a certain way, he would have made that obvious. If he hasn't made it obvious, then it isn't very important.


 Hello . . . . . . (I don't know your name - so I can't properly address you in this email.)

I just found the web site. It really hit home. I have so many things I'd like to ask you - but you probably wouldn't have time to address them all. I'll try to be as brief as I can. My heart is aching with so much more than I'll trouble you with at this time.

After having been so thoroughly drenched in the Worldwide Church of God "truth" for much of my life, now I'm left feeling like I'm (spiritually) Eternally doomed - so what's the point in living? I looked at the suicide list, letters and so on - on the web site. They all felt too familiar to me. I've struggled with desires of suicide for longer than I can explain or understand, even before the the Worldwide Church of God breakup. I can't find happiness, no matter what I try. I feel like I "know too much" as my father always tells me. Yet . . . what do I know? I mean . . . what do I REALLY know????? Facts - mere outward - facts of Biblical knowledge, don't coincide with what my heart tells me about what God must be like. I don't know if I ever really knew Him, anyway. All I know . . . is confusion. If the Bible is correct . . . God isn't the author of that concept in my life. Since I don't have peace or a sound mind . . . then I must not know God. Right? But with the total (brainwashing) experiences I have to base my knowledge on - how could I ever un-do this damage?

How can I find "hope" again? Without hope, life seems pointless. I go through the motions of merely existing . . . feeling like my physical life will only be followed by a flaming end of eternal death. I can't seem to find anyone to talk to who understands - or find anyone I trust to help me. I want to die far more than I want to live - but I can't do that to my 2 children. I have always told myself, as soon as they graduated and moved out of the house . . . then I'd do it. Yet, I seem to find they still need me at times. Yes - I still need my physical parents at times, too even though they filled my mind with total confusion.

Without hope . . . how can I live? If I can't "die" . . . how may my life be more than an agonizing existence?

I've read several articles on the web site - and they all ring true to me . . . yet how do we ever find peace after the Worldwide Church of God legacy in our lives? I hope (I can't even say "pray" anymore) that you can please point me in some direction. You see - I can't even talk to God, anymore. I feel like Eve - hiding in the garden, afraid of God's wrath and I don't even have an "Adam" to cling to, anymore. If you know ANYONE that would be willing to have an email correspondence to help me . . . I beg you to send my letter to them. I feel as if I've sunk down into very dense quick sand - just about up to my nose . . . and I don't have much energy left to struggle with. If you could please drop me a line to hang on to . . . I would sincerely appreciate it.

I am ever grateful for any small ray of hope you may give me. Like a "dog under the table" . . . I beg for crumbs.


I've been reading your website this evening out of concern for a friend of mine in the worldwide church of god. I just wanted to let you know in a much smaller scale but with the same emotional pain, I've gone through what you've gone through in middle school.

I'd like to discuss some of my ideas with you because I found it so interesting seeing you've gone so far down a road that I feel, I have traveled. I give you these ideas with no strings, and as such you may reject them completely, or as I like to say... your mileage may vary.

Mostly I wanted to write this is because of your brilliantly illuminated point... if there was a God, why would He require us to shut down our brains which is clearly what make us unique to everything else out there.

So anyway here I go, I hope you find this at least interesting. I will try to be brief but, when we use words as measuring sticks, I find that our words are not that accurate after all, so I must measure and re-measure and hope, that you build the same idea in your head as my own.

Fact, belief, I believe these two words are wrong by definition. Its difficult to explain because in explaining why I think fact and belief are the same thing, I have to say, these ideas I believe, but please be patient, I have not had this conversation many times because a lot of people are not very open minded about these two words that seem to be the foundation of understanding the world and I pretty much threaten that.

I can say, it is a fact the sun will rise tomorrow. I can say it is a fact the sky is blue. These are simple things. However, at the risk of sounding crazy, I protest. I may be able to come up with a lavish paranoid story about how the son will not rise tomorrow, that you and I are in some type of infinite loop that will never complete and will be communicating though this email till the end of time and tomorrow will never arrive.

Crazy? You bet. Possible? Well.... no not really. Well mayyyybe... but the possibility is so small... we ignore that. Or we don't talk about it because its not practical.

The point is, there are really no facts. You could say we believe the sky is blue, we believe the sun will rise tomorrow. Still, saying that does not accurately communicate the truth. There are degrees of probability for everything. Over 99% chance the sun will rise tomorrow.

So suffice to say fact means really high probability and belief means .... something else....

I've heard a profound statement "proof denies faith." How many times are you told that you believe in something when you accept it without seeing any proof of it.

WHAT? I always said "that is something I will never do." It seems diametrically opposed to Science itself. People are suppose embrace religion because their soul tells them its right.

This is what disturbs me the most. Your statement that why would God want you to turn off that which makes us unique to everything else science has found in the universe. Well that's belief for you. Saying I believe something means I'm afraid to really think about this, I just accept it as "fact".

So if fact is something that is probably true.... belief means I'm afraid to think about it, how do I accurately communicate about these things to anyone? Do I have to make a new language? New words? I don't know yet I'm still working on this part. Am I to say "my evidence suggests this is probably true" and sound like Spock for cryin out loud? I'm not here to reprogram the masses, I'm not wired for it, its definitely not MY job to do that.

It takes a certain amount of guts to reject mainstream religion in bulk yet as a teenager that's exactly what I had to do to stay sane. I wont go into detail why or how otherwise I could be typing all night BUT, I'll tell you where I ended up after feeling very isolated very alone and without direction and reason in the universe.

I read in Wired magazine a few years ago that memory is the simple, yet hopelessly inaccurate process of eliminating possibilities in your mind. If you learn a phone number of your friend you in a way forget the other million other possibilities it could be. So knowing everything, is a lot like forgetting everything.

Weird. That took about six months to sink in. Where that leads me is if there is an ideal, like god, everywhere everything, you would kind of become that when you die. However if that is true... its got nothing to do with a book that was never written in English to begin with and has been translated and perverted a million times over and over. It just has to do with becoming a part of the ultimate truth of the universe instead of being a tiny isolated world observing the real world through tiny flawed pinholes.

This way there is no hurt, there is no guilt. There is just the universe and the rules that always were and always will be. We are an inseparable part of this universe. We experience pain, and all the other emotions that were created with us. As we climb the evolutional ladder there are many truths we discovered that at first scared us, but as history teaches us, we can only go foreword, as there is only more pain following the mistakes of the past and ignoring the evidence of the present.

I admire your website, although I could never make one of my own. I've tried to confront the people that ridiculed me in school and they just don't get it. This many years later they don't remember the pain they caused me or even remember the act of making the accusations they did, that caused me to "loose faith". They are all trying their best to complete their lives and me giving them a hard time is not going to stop more kids from going through what I went through. So I am pursuing other ideas. I work on computers, and help people every day complete their work faster. I can't force my religion or lack thereof on anyone, but I do talk to anyone that I think will listen. My goal is not to change someone's mind, but to try to accurately communicate the truth as I have seen it, to those who would like to listen. (shouldn't that be an oxymoron, "the truth as I have seen it"? Isint the truth the same for everyone?)

Also in a way, if I stay angry at these people, they in a way 'win'. Forgiveness is an important thing... I still believe in it without religion. There's a long story behind that if you want to hear it. I don't think its appropriate for all situations, some things can't be forgiven. Your forgiveness is your own option. In my situation it is an option. Even if you did forgive the people that manipulated you, you and your site still are doing a service to a lot of people clearly... including me.

I'd like to say your wife is watching you now and is happy. You and I know that is not the whole truth. However if she forgot everything, and in turn learned everything, she has become part of the universe... not a separate part like we are. Instead of looking at the universe thorough her eyes, she is the universe. And in that way she does not have to worry about the burden of a beating heart or surging lungs, eating sleeping. I wish you were lucky enough to spend more time with her. If forgetting everything is like knowing everything, she knows the duration of your life, and in that way we could say she is and has and will watch over you. It seems to me her suffering and death profoundly effects you to this day.

I hope these words make you happier in life. If they don't then there is of course no need to reply, just delete this message, I'm more than happy being a faded memory too. Because hey, I gave it a shot.

If you got this far I'd like to remain anonymous. If you care to quote anything here feel free as long as I'm anonymous. For reasons stated earlier, I'd rather not risk my friend finding my name on your site. He is a good man from what I know and although he is in this church, I see no evidence that he is an evil person. I am very concerned about his contributions to this organization however.

Anyway that's what I get for trying to be brief. Typing 110 words per minute can get you in trouble.

I wish you the best.

Take care,


Thanks for your message. Wish I could type as fast as you, I could save a lot of time. I keep having to hit the backspace key too much. My fingers do fine its just that my brain tells them to spell things wrong. You have certainly figured things out and you are lucky to have done it from such an early age regardless of your friends not understanding you.

I really do not have a lot of pain regarding my first wife. I've been in my second marriage for 27 years now and have a very good life. People think that I am bitter and just doing the PT site for revenge. Not the case. It is a public service. Probably the best thing I will ever do in my life. It is helping people to understand and to think. It is freeing people from slavery and from guilt. They can then pass this understanding on to their children and then they can be free too. I can't ask for anything better than that.

I don't feel I have to give blanket forgiveness to any of these abusers. They are still misleading people for their own profit, they have not repented for all their evil. My not forgiving them does not affect me. I think this bitterness/forgiveness thing is really blown out of proportion, probably taking it from the bible. So, someone did something bad to me and doesn't apologize, that doesn't affect me. Just makes me all the more aware that there are many people and organizations that will be more than happy to screw me.

Regarding your "become part of the universe" theory, I'm afraid that does not give me a lot of comfort. I already have that. My atoms are here. They aren't going away. I have to be able to have a memory and to think, otherwise why bother?

Regarding your friend in the WCG, he is probably no worse off there than in any other church.


Dear painful truth editor, my name is Steven I was in the church for 16 years in Manhattan Westchester NY. I came in the church when I was 19 years old and have many many many tales to tell. I've given thousands of thousands of dollars, lost the best years of my life being deceived, made to live in fear and lost many years with my family. Please don't print my full name as of yet. I'm in the process of making up a biography of my history in the church to submit someday. I started reading your site after 911, just to see how the people in the church were interpreting that event. I was astounded to find out all the different information that you had available. Too bad I didn't have all this information when I was 19 years old. I am now 46. It has been very very intriguing to read all the information. It's almost beyond believe. I haven't gotten the courage yet to confront the ministers of the past. Because in my trauma, I don't know what bullshit excuses they're going to try to give me, maybe they going to make me feel crazy. That's why I would like some answers if you have the time.

1. How many of the ministers to you really think didn't really believe in God and just did it for other reasons?

2. Do think Mr. Armstrong really didn't believe in God or that he was just crazy and somehow thought he had the right to do what he did?

3. Do you think that we will ever get our money back?

4. How do you get back your ability to have a really strong opinion when having a strong opinion is what got you in trouble with the church in the first place?

When you look throughout history, many many times there was only a few people who were really correct. Galileo, Copernicus, Columbus, people who invented democracy in ancient Greece when most of the world were led by Kings. Sometimes I feel that I can see things that most of the world can't see. Not in a crazy way. Sometimes the masses are like sheep if not all the time. Most people are adaptive and will adapt to whatever a leader says. I guess what I'm asking is how do you get back your ability to discern truth from error. Even in the scientific community there are people that believe that herbs heal better than many medications, which is probably true. But the majority will listen to whatever a doctor told them to do. The statistics show that one of the major causes of death are doctors and pharmaceuticals. Don't get me wrong I believe that a person should do anything to get better. I DO BELIEVE IN DOCTORS, but not like they were God or something. Most people think that it would be crazy not to to believe in a doctor and take natural remedies instead. Many health sciences prove that many natural remedies actually help people better than some of the toxic medications that are out there. I don't think the majority are always right. And that's what I'm worried about . I don't find it hard to believe in controversial things. But that was my downfall in the church. I guess that was one of the most horrible things that the church did to us . Make us doubt are very mind itself ! HOW DO I KNOW THAT ANYTHING IS TRUE NOW? Would like your comments if you have the time.

If the answer is in your facts just tell me so. Thank you very much.



1.  How many of the ministers to you really think didn't really believe in God and just did it for other reasons?


Hard for me to say since I only really knew maybe 10 of them. I think they all "believed" in a god, its just that that god is so evil. I think, whenever they ran into some inconsistency, they would just say that "this is god's church, god is in charge" and move on. In other words, they were no more smarter than the dumb sheep that they were leading. I don't think that most of these men were/are deep thinkers.  I think most of them just look at their position as a job. Maybe they feel like they are helping people by "interpreting" the bible for them. I would say that those that were higher up on the food chain had to know more of the inside information. Those are the guys that are most likely corrupt. I think you could tell those that really cared about the people. They were probably just as deluded as the rest of us.  Those that appeared aloof and superior to the congregation, were probably just in it for the power and easy money.


2.  Do think Mr. Armstrong really didn't believe in God or that he was just crazy and somehow thought he had the right to do what he did?


I think that he was one of the ones who appeared aloof and superior to the congregation and was probably just in it for the power and easy money.  I guess you would have to see him in private to know for sure. I think the story of him going dancing with his daughter on a Friday night and not being afraid of anyone finding him out because he knew that the members would all be home keeping the Sabbath, tells a lot. Look at how he would change "god's laws" when he needed to in order to make his own life easier. Doctors, divorce, makeup, all "new truth" revealed just when herbie needed god to change things for him.


3.  Do you think that we will ever get our money back?


Only if there is a god the cares about mankind and justice.


4.  How do you get back your ability to have a really strong opinion when having a strong opinion is what got you in trouble with the church in the first place? 


Base your opinions on things you can prove and that you have logically thought through. One of our big problems was that we convinced ourselves that we had "proven the bible was god's word" when we really had just accepted that it was. If you had really sought to prove, one way or another, objectively, whether or not it is a book inspired by a perfect god, you could only prove that it couldn't possibly be. Once we made this one decision, we were hooked for good.




You don't. So it is up to you to sort through to figure out what is true and what isn't. You add up all the facts and make your decision. You just have to remember that there are probably as many people willing to lie to you to make a profit as there are those that are telling you the truth. Maybe more. There are also those that can be completely convinced of what they are telling you but also be completely wrong. They are NOT lying to you but what they tell you should not be believed. You have to educate yourself so that you can make wise decisions.

Take heart. Your life is going to be so much better now that you can leave all the guilt and slavery behind. Make the most of  the life you have left, free of the scum of the earth, bloodsucking,  ministerial types. Unfortunately, what they do, in the name of god, is perfectly legal in this country.


Regarding the Ministerial Disfellowship List:

I really don't give a damn when it gets right down to it, but the two who gave me and my wife so much trouble, and got us tossed out by Denny Luker and the great Vic (2 weeks before they quit) were:

Jim Turner (Alaska....didn't believe in therapy like EMDR or anything like it)

Ted Hurlofson (San Luis Obispo, who did Jim's dirty work for him getting us tossed...and was a notorious jerk anyway, leaving a trail of "stories" everywhere he went)

They should definitely be on your list

Mike Pickett aka Gruffy


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